Interesting comment.

As an exercise in honesty, if I were to assert that the moon is made out of green cheese, would you feel inclined to make a logical argument to refute my assertion?

From where I sit, I would simply tell any moron who diligently tried to back up that assertion that they were imbeciles and completely not worth a response - but that's me.

In short, current technology - no. I have high hopes for thorium reactors, if we ever put the money into making them viable.

Right - now there's a well thought-out concept.

Let's ensure that the people pay to keep the infrastructure that businesses use in good repair - even though the value that each citizen gets from that infrastructure varies across different earnings demographics. But no matter, those good-for-nothing poor people should pay to keep our corporate infrastructure in place, otherwise the rich will have to shoulder the burden - and that would be unfair to those who reap the greatest rewards from this system. Is that the point you were trying to make?

After all, think of the poor multinationals who pay little to no tax to the US government already. Why should those poor overvalued businesses have to contribute to our society in any meaningful manner? Look at the incredible myriads f benefit that the Trump corporate structure delivers to Americans. How could we live without the crap he foists on us and then brags about this garbage as if we couldn't live without him.

What your CEO missed in his rationalization is that society has little to no use for his corporation. In other words, he is running a failed business model which should be taxed out of existence because it adds no value to society.

In a just world, this asshole would then be forced on the dole and enjoy how wonderful a life he leads being pampered by the government. /snark

I already answered that question.

A correctly regulated market which allows for a level playing field.

Yes, that's correct. A businessman who has owned and operated his own business for going on 30 years wants the right amount of regulation.

But what's funny about that is that you actually think you should be allowed to have an opinion this in this discussion as if you are some kind of equal or peer to me.

I understand that English is not your first language but I didn't realize that reading comprehension was such a challenge for you.

Well, let me bring you up to date on what you obviously don't know.

The United States is now running equal to China as the world's single largest economy. We do this with less than 1/3rd of China's population.

In other words, the US is not hampered by regulation and if it is, maybe the rest of the world should immediately hamper themselves so they can catch up.

Let's see if you can understand even the most basic concept so that you won't make even more of a complete jackass out of yourself.

I fully support and demand that any business selling food not only be licensed but inspected so as to insure that any food sold is safe to eat. I know that where you live food safety isn't a problem and that the when you get sick you probably shit pleasant smelling rainbows - but here in regulation land, we're not as lucky as you so obviously are.

It is said that imbeciles laugh at what they don't understand. Thank you for proving that adage correct.

That would be a refreshing change.

I thought you said you had a better idea.

When can I expect to read it?

So, you are about to be displaced out of your great country? Damn, I wonder how great life will be for you after that happens?

Except that your country is being bought out from underneath you? If only there was some way to prevent that from happening... Undoubtedly less regulations will fix that challenge too.

I love this! Nowhere did I ever say that anything is "the only possible course of action" but you go right ahead and keep flogging that strawman, if you really think it will make you feel better.

Let's parse this one idiocy down and see if there is even a shred of validity there.

As mentioned previously, the United States is one of the two largest economies on the face of the earth. We produce almost exactly as much as the Chinese do with roughly 1/3rd of the manpower. By definition, that makes us three times more productive than the only competing manufacturing entity in the world - but you are screaming how compliance is costing us a lot of money?

One might think, it would be blatantly evident that all of that compliance has no measurable effect or we wouldn't be where we are, would we? This should be profoundly obvious to all but the most blind - a demographic that you do so well in representing. Maybe we can get you to demonstrate just how brilliant in mathematics you are. Please enlighten us, we can use the smile.

Bullshit.

Let me get this straight, so what you're saying is that the government REGULATES the ISPs so as to demand they service less profitable locations? On the other hand, I know that Mythical Land has free burn treatment centers - so you have that going for you.

So, what you're saying is that you have no idea how things work in this country? Wow, who would have guessed?

Do tell.

Oh, you've observed! Wow, did that hurt?

Again, you misunderstand. I charge exactly what the market will bear for my services. I would have thought you understood how that works.

Sure, that's it. And given how you've observed so much, how could anyone know as much as you, right? It's not like you are engaging in braggadocio, right? No, not at all...

Oh! Reader's Digest asked people how much they think the tax rate should be? Did it occur to Reader's Digest that every voting American can influence that amount on a regular basis? Did they also ask them what they would be willing to lose if they only paid in whatever amount they chose? More to the point, in Myhtical Land, do they allow you to vote? Maybe that's why you have no practical clue what the hell you are talking about.

We have a saying here, opinions are like assholes. If anything, Reader's Digest just proved that point - as they do quite regularly.

Wow, no one has ever thought of that idea before! I am simply amazed that with all of your powers of keen observation, you missed that that idea has been discussed many times - where we concluded that it doesn't work.

The reason why is that "those people" can't seem to agree on is where the government should make those cuts. In fact, about half of our country is dedicated to "giving weapons" to all kinds of people, even though they haven't figured out that when we do so, these weapons find their way into the hands of "Al Nusra/The Muslim Brotherhood/Mexican Drug Gangs/dictators etc etc etc." And the other half, wants to finance "'green' boondoggles'" even though I honestly doubt you have any idea what that might mean - you know - based on the bullshit you keep regurgitating.

Yes, actually, many of us do. I probably pay more in taxes every year than you gross - but that might be an exaggeration know the incredibly high compensation rates of "observers in third world countries.

I have been paying taxes since 1973 and while I cannot claim that I enjoy it, I do see it as my patriotic duty. You see, unlike you, I understand that I derive great benefit from living here. And also unlike you, I am willing to pay a lot of money - even for it to be wasted on some things (in my opinion) so as to continue financing what makes this country what it is - faults and all.

While I'm sure in your circlejerk reality, you've heard that everyone in this country HATES taxes, amazingly, if that was true we would have voted for no taxes and done away with them. And yet, we haven't. I'm sure that boggles your mind even though I doubt boggling your mind is all that difficult.

I have voted in every election since 1974 - so yes, I have voted about taxes but while I know you cannot even begin to comprehend that, this wasn't the most important issue for me by a long shot.

Okay, I get it. You have to be trolling. There is no way you could actually be this fucking stupid.

Is it that you really don't have any understanding of what the lives of a slave on a plantation was actually like? Or are you so buried in hyperbole that you feel the need to sue these terms?

No one puts a gun to my head to get me to pay taxes. I pay them voluntarily. I feel the same way about paying taxes as I do when I buy meal in a restaurant or purchase an automobile.

My family lives in a very comfortable home, my children attend excellent schools, I have reasonably good quality health care, and have paid cash for both my home and all of my cars for the last 35 years.

Now, could I live is a far better lifestyle if I got to keep all of my tax money? Sure, no question about it. I admit it, it's expensive - but someone has to pay to keep the lights on.

No, of course not. I not only don't think that, I don't want them to give a damn about me. It's not their job, that's my job. Why would you think otherwise?

Don't be so hard on yourself. I know you've gotten a mountain of bad information but there's a huge difference between being willfully ignorance and intellectually challenged. Many of us here would be exceedingly grateful if you would work a little harder to not cross that line but that's up to you.

No! Really? Amortization? Wow, Stop the presses.

There is no such thing as a loss forever? Is that your professional business opinion as an observer?

Then I am hear to tell you to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.

Said the guy who just wrote, There is no such thing as a "loss forever", merely more and less profitable

And Mr, I am a brilliant observer, your further assertion that "if the ISPs are charging the correct rates" flies in the face of your free market bullshit which would state that rates are not set by the ISP, they are set by the - get this - Free Market.

Nice of you to admit that you don't even buy your own bullshit.

Well, strictly based on the tripe you posted, one would have to conclude you are about 16 years old but sadly, I suspect you might be a good bit older.

Actually, being correct on that was assured knowing that the chances of you being over 100 are zero. I suppose that might be overestimating the possibility that you are well over 100 years old. After all, to learn all the crap you have must have taken an extraordinary amount of time - so there's that...

The difference between arrogance and confidence can be hard for someone like you to grasp. Given that you think someone else created my limits, I can see where you would mistakenly believe all kinds of other garbage - but that doesn't make it so.

You seem to be confused in thinking I give a shit, I don't. I just wanted to see if you'd have the guts to post which developing nation you belong to but I can see that you really can't do that for fear of people taking you to task for your bullshit.

What a surprise.

Wow, tens of thousands of hours in IT? Well, let's measure that penis of your against mine, shall we?

I started working in IT in 1974, sent my first "electronic messages" across DECnet in either the late 1970s or early 1980s. Started building boards for the original IBM PC back in 1981 which then took me into the PC world in 1982. Worked for a Fortune 500 company as their Senior Engineer traveling all over creation fixing every god damn thing they could find to throw at me (with varying success) and then started my own business in 1987 - in guess what - IT.

Oh and probably before you knew what broadband was in your home (1999), I rolled out high speed Internet in a very rural part of the US because our heavily restricted telecommunications industry were apparently prevented from doing so. Who knew?

And in all honesty, I am not an astrophysicist, my forte is not math, and I know that if every single American could move to your country, we'd all be far better off - but I'm quite content here.

But while we're on the subject of how good at math you are, generating a thousand plus hours in consulting and building broadband networks is a little over two manyears, but that was across roughly a decade when I was also involved in any number of other projects concurrently. Could it be that your theoretical math isn't really a good application in business? Maybe you could observe a bit more about that.

Not you, though, your system is famous for developing free thinkers, right?.

Perhaps you can point out explicitly where I made any such statements. I'd be fascinated to see where you got that idea.

Likewise, you do understand that we all create our own realities, right? From my perspective, you simply have no idea what reality is for me or most of the people in my country. Of course, you can't seem to bring yourself to reveal your country's name. This is undoubtedly due to the pride you have in this great nation.

Currently, I slave under a 60Mbps/down - 10 Mbps/up cable connection which is adequate. However, if you care to look you would find out that I was advocating gigabit speeds in industry forums as early as 2004. But you would have to observe these things to actually understand them.

So, what I learned today is that you have next to no business experience or understanding. Apparently, you also have no idea what a billable hour is or what a billable hour isn't what you seem to think it is. Good job there, Ace, way to make your point on your expertise sing.

As this is past the point of absurd, I will let you take the final word, if you so choose to embarrass yourself again.

No, I do not believe the Free Market is the ideal, nor do I believe one can realistically exist any more than a pure democracy or communism.

Indeed.

I find that generalization patently absurd based on the sweeping declaration that it made. And there are any number of reasons this country is going to hell but regulation probably is near the bottom of the list. I see people who willingly vote against their best interests as being one of the reasons why a political system which is based on people voting for their best interests is failing. And in case this statement was lost in the noise, the libertarian movement is largely based on people making the best decisions as to what is good for them.

Let me also add that this country isn't "going to hell" any more than most of the rest of them are - so it would be appreciated if we could keep this discussion inside the bounds of reality.

I think your claim is pure hyperbole. I live in Maryland, I filed for a business license, paid the fee and that was it. In addition, I filed paperwork with the state department of taxation as well as declare my business name but both of those tasks took under five minutes each. Now, businesses that are engaged in using dangerous chemicals or a food handling facility have significantly more permitting (as they should) but for the most part opening a business here is relatively painless.

Wow, there's a subjective statement offered as though it was an indisputable fact. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm happy you think your country is so much better than either Somalia or the US but you do understand that some of us might not agree with you, right?

Feel free to identify this wonderful land so that we may all feel inferior to your paradise - unless, of course, you feel that we might not agree with you.

Well, how could anyone argue with that declaration? After all, you did type your opinion in ALL CAPS.

Those are only two of Somalia's problems and probably not the worst two. In fact, I could probably name a dozen more critical issue Somalia is facing without giving it too much thought.

How can I despise something that doesn't exist? You mistake my contempt for a badly thought-out concept for hatred when it is little more than ridicule.

Yes, you say "less is more" but you somehow can't actually quantify that limit - and there's where the problem comes in. It's like the Laffer curve - which some people point to when they talk about tax rates. The problem is, no one seems to be able to pinpoint exactly where on that curve is optimal or where the tipping point lies - other than to say that 100% is too much and 0% would probably be too little.

As a piece of advice, try not to use terms, like strawman fallacy, that you obviously are having difficulty understanding. It weakens your credibility and makes it difficult to want to respond to you with anything more eloquent than outright insults.

I actually don't require any profit as I take whatever I make at the end of the year as my salary. As such, I set relatively easy goals for me to accomplish which will meet my family's financial needs as well as generate whatever I set for expansion and go from there. And when I exceed my revenue targets, I donate to what I believe are worthwhile causes both in time as well as money.

And here is where you effectively announced that you are not in business. If you were you would understand that a more ruthless competitor would take your market share whenever they chose to because they would have the resources to do it and you would not have the resources to prevent them from doing so. And if you believe that your helping your community will make that difference, here in the real world, we know that Walmart style low prices will entice your customers to walk away from you (the local business and community giver) and leave you dry.

Sure, that's it - said the guy who refuses to identify which mythical land he lives in or how long he has been in business.

No, it's not regulations and even the fact that you would say that shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

This is a very simple concept to understand and given that you seem to have no idea, please allow me to explain it to you.

Let's say you want to open zapadnik.ISP.com and you have a finite set of resources to make this happen. You look at Mythical Land and instantly realize that you can't instantly build out the entire country because that's simply not possible. Then as you research this further, you also realize that some areas will be more profitable than others. For example, businesses will pay more for service than residential customers and the people in the wealthy neighborhoods will sign up for service in far greater percentages than those who live in the poor neighborhoods.

But living in Mythical Land, you also are astute enough to understand that if you don't build out a sustainable business model, your competitor will immediately open up and take those more profitable locations. Of course, this gives him the competitive advantage seeing as he is making more per customer (ARPU) and since he is far more profitable than you, he is now capable of building out faster than you are while also controlling the more profitable locations.

And more to the point, he is going to stop at whatever street he believes is not worth his while to build past - because he doesn't want to connect those neighborhoods that will never turn a profit.

No, with limited resources, a savvy businessperson will understand that there is a limit where you can build (resources run out) and also another deciding factor where the "other side of the street" has no Return On Investment (ROI) so building that location out would be a loss.

Actually, it is you who is making a complete jackass out of yourself. It's evident that you have no idea how any of this works, other than some half-baked concept you read on some other jackass's blog.

Ah, so your government has figured out exactly how little regulation is required. That's awesome. Now, feel free to name your awesome country so the ridicule can begin.

quote>Good for you. It is pleasing to hear that your "squeezing the customer for every last drop of blood we can get, we damn well do it." (which would including taking the wealth the State took at gunpoint from your fellow citizens - if profit was indeed your only concern) is merely silly hyperbole added for dramatic effect.

Talk about hyperbole. How much credibility do you honestly think you have when you say profoundly ignorant shit like this, "taking the wealth the State took at gunpoint from your fellow citizens". I am embarrassed for you.

Oh really? Then please tell us who exactly is building into the poor neighborhoods in Mythical land? Surely, these for profit entities are smart enough to not willingly build out locations they know will be a loss forever.

No, what you're doing is posting a pile of shit and while you would love to make it sound like this is your personal experience, we both know it isn't. The least you could do it admit it, this is what you would have liked to have thought happened but filtered through some rose colored lens you made up to bolster an idiotic argument.

Indeed! But not for the reasons you made up.

Just so we understand each other, I have built networks in more countries than you have lived years. I do understand what is going on worldwide and have consulted on projects you may have read about. What you think is mixed messages is really a very well researched understanding of this industry backed up by a shitload of real world experience - as defined by thousands of billable hours in this exact field.

Given that you have more than completely exposed yourself as someone who has no firsthand experience in this field and as a person who holds deep seated beliefs in an economic system which is a fantasy, how about if you think about what has been said here?

And while you're listening, feel free to identify this magical country where you live so that I can contact the people I know who provide service there. Even better, if they feel like they can waste the time, I will invite them to join this discussion so they can personally hand you your ass. I wouldn't wait for that to happen because they are busy finding more ways to get money out of you so they can build out their networks into more profitable neighborhoods which leads to even more financial rewards.

One more point, when you wake up, take a look out your window and see if you can figure out what areas have excellent coverage, what areas are marginal and which locations were excluded from service. What you are going to find is the following: Business/Industrial locations are almost completely serviced, the wealthy residential neighborhoods are serviced as well, the middle class (assuming Mythical Land has one) has good to fair service with some locations being marginal and the poor areas (and rural) only have service where it spills over from the other areas.

It's nothing short of amazing how I nailed that, isn't it?

That's the difference between real world experience and reading some asshole's blog.

Who are you kidding? If we are going to be honest about this subject, how about if we agree that there never has been anything even close to resembling a free market.

And what few experiments we have documented where unregulated markets were allowed to flourish, we saw monopolies take over the entire market. Perhaps the term "Gilded Age" means something to you.

Perhaps, speaking as a business person, I should have used the term "profit" - but if you can't make money, profit is not going to happen. And as to trading profit for market share, that's typically not a sustainable model longer term, now is it? And social capital? - Sure, you run your business along those lines and get back to me as to how that works out long term. As to your comment about me being not a very good businessman, coming up on 30 years of supporting myself and family in a relatively comfortable lifestyle would disagree with you - but I'm sure you know better.

Sure, Somalia is a libertarian paradise. As I know you're just dying to move there and put your money where your mouth is, I won't hold you up any longer.

Neither description is accurate. I believe in a correctly regulated market, one that levels the playing field. I have zero issues with government having electrified this country or put in place a system that allowed for the telecommunications network to become the gold standard of the world - but that was then. Today's quasi-deregulated insanity allows for - get this - one level of broadband in one neighborhood and literally across the street it isn't available. All this in the land of "Can you hear me now?" instead of providing excellent quality services, we get - hit or miss. Feel free to read the anecdotal evidence supplied above about how well Seattle is doing.

What color is the sky in your reality? Well there son, how about you pack all of that bullshit and move to a country where you earned income can roam free. Do it, many of us will even chip in to pay for that one way ticket.

And, for the record, when faced with the opportunity to "taking" taxpayer money, I turned it down - multiple times. I should probably add that I did so for reasons very different than what you'd probably think but you'd probably have a hard time believing it anyway.

Actually, I do understand that many countries are surpassing the US, most of which are doing so using government instead of private enterprise. In some cases, public/private partnerships are worked out which seems to provide the best of all worlds. But let me be clear on this, nowhere on earth is private industry doing anything other what I or you would likely do - build profitable, sustainable business models which would staunchly refuse to build our networks in areas that will not pay back in a reasonable period of time.

Last I checked, MSOs will not begin construction unless they see a take rate of 14 user per mile. DSL used to be backfilled in areas where the take rate for landlines was somewhat less but there was still a limit to the service area connected.

Yes, I know, you're a genius and have figured it all out. God Bless ya.

But what you just can't seem to understand is - you are a huge pile of unworkable theories with zero real world experience.

Good luck with that.

Yes, that's it. Dozens of businesses will spring forth and build incredibly expensive networks to fight over market share. And they will do this especially in cases where all of the businesses have driven the price to the absolute lowest possible dollar. This is how people who have never run a business think the world would run, if only libertarians were in charge.

Sadly, reality works along, well, more real lines.

Oh, you live in Mythical land! Forgive me, I should have known. And much like Somalia, where infrastructure blossoms in the Spring sun along with the free medical care, your mythical country has free land for these companies which are unfettered by government to build their cable plant, fiber, and/or wireless on, which reduces their cost for such construction projects to nearly zero except for that free hardware. And because government has no use for money in mythical land, (where for profit businesses fight for the right to build infrastructure in locations which will never break even) there is no need for taxes to be collected because all of government's functions are grown right beside infrastructure on the midsummer's night's eves.

Established in 1987, which is more than likely before your parents finished wiping your ass for you. More to the point, if you actually understood anything about business, aside from what they teach you at Mythical Land Libertarian Bullshit University, you would understand that only objective is to make money. Any decent capitalistic textbook will tell you that making money will not be impeded by anything - especially customer satisfaction. And more to the point, even in Mythical Land, there is a massive capital layout required to bring these networks to life and to keep them continually maintained as well as upgraded as necessary. Oh and, I know a lot about this subject, I built these networks in hundreds of locations, all over world, with the exception of the Antarctic continent. So you might say I have quite a bit more experience in this field than you do - in spite of what you think about yourself.

Yes, Chattanooga, to name only one. Just because you have no idea what you're talking about (as evidenced by your above statement) doesn't mean you have an educated opinion. Get a fucking grip, will you?

Bullshit. You live in a country where the government enabled a monopoly to control the infrastructure and for the time being you are seeing the benefit. If history has taught us anything, it is that this will change.

Businesses don't exist to keep their customers happy, that's not our job. We do what we do to keep our investors happy and if that means squeezing the customer for every last drop of blood we can get, we damn well do it.

No, in the 1930s, we'd be telling you that we need to provide telecommunications and electrification to just about every single address in the entire country.

Amazingly, we did this and when it came time for the entire country to ramp up production, we were able to meet that demand - unlike what might have happened if we listened to the morons now pushing this shit all over again.

At the risk of reducing your point to a cheap joke, this guy is a self-correcting problem.

Nonetheless, you point stands. What mass media has become is a watering hole to dispense carefully scripted messages to lead the sheep. And even more incredibly, this same medium is under constant attack for being too liberal.

A democracy, or democratic republic, if you will, requires an educated electorate. We have allowed our society to praise ignorance while shunning educated people in many ways. Even worse, we now accept that everyone's opinion is somehow equally valuable, as if some guy should be accorded the same standing in a discussion about cancer as a licensed oncologist. And when a healthy segment of the voting population can be directed to vote against their best interests, the foundation of our political system begins to crumble.

Here's where I object to this type to "educational reform".

If we allow this charade to come to its logical conclusion, in a couple of decades, a large percentage of Oklahomans will become largely unemployable in any capacity past menial labor. And if we accept that the demand for menial labor is going to steadily decrease, this leaves many of these people relegated the welfare ranks, ironically where the Republicans would prefer to let them starve.

This means that "we" (the larger SlashDot community) will eventually have to pay to carry these "miseducated" Americans or make the judgment call to let them get by on their own, something that I would be reticent to do.

Add to that, the fact that the Republicans will refuse to accept any responsibility for this catastrophe or will hand us the line that this was done by the old Republican Party and that the new, improved Republicans would never have enacted this type of legislation. Alternately, maybe they'll simply claim it was the liberal media that caused the problem, seeing as it would be hard to pin this on terrorism, drugs, or pornography.

As someone who doesn't know an ass from a hole in a tree, maybe we should poison the net with all kinds of pictures showing every single possible SCADA device ever made as having been installed in every single location. And just to keep things interesting, why don't we make up a few dozen brands to add to the mix. Sometimes bad information is more potent than no information at all.

See: Human Health, Tobacco.